Maulik Sailor (00:10)
Hello all to all joining us live today. welcome to a brand new episode of Get Future Ready Podcast, where we talk about the impact of AI on e-commerce and fintech. If you're joining us for the first time, then don't forget to sign up to our community on joinfutuready.com and get notified about all our upcoming podcasts and in-person meetups. Today
Maulik Sailor (00:37)
This is a third episode where we have been in a series where we have been talking about compliance and regulations, particularly in a fast moving landscape of FinTech, Agentic Commerce, Agentic Payments, and any AI native companies. And if you haven't yet watched the prior two episodes, then simply we we'll go to get feature ready on YouTube or Spotify and you'll be able to do a catch up on those episodes also on LinkedIn at some as well.
Maulik Sailor (01:04)
but if you have managed to look through those episodes then that we have already covered a lot of points. But today we're gonna talk about slightly different topic. And we again have my guest Lyubomira on the on the call today. She has been with us before, but rejoining again today to continue our discussion from the prior session. So without any further delay, let me welcome our guest, Lyubomira, who is the co founder of of Relace
Maulik Sailor (01:31)
Hi Lyubo. Sorry, I call you Lyubo
Lyubomira (Relace) (01:33)
Hello.
Maulik Sailor (01:33)
all the time.
Lyubomira (Relace) (01:34)
No, Lyubo is perfect. thank you so much for having me. Really excited to continue the conversation.
Maulik Sailor (01:39)
Yeah, thanks a lot for joining us again today. but how have you been, since we last spoke?
Lyubomira (Relace) (01:46)
Really, good. Thank you so much. really busy times for us. we also have some exciting news actually today. I as I was saying to you just before the call or just before we got live. Yes?
Maulik Sailor (01:56)
Sorry, sorry, before you announce that, right, I
Maulik Sailor (01:58)
think there might be some audience which have not seen the previous episodes so why don't you start with your quick introduction and your company introduction?
Lyubomira (Relace) (02:05)
I'll introduce that. sure. So Relace is a regulatory technology platform, and we really connect the regulatory obligations of firms, right, to their operations, right? So we really go through all the main pillars of what are what are the regulations that apply to you depending on your activities and products and services and the way you are providing these products and services, right? Because there's a lot of nuance and a lot of permutations there.
Lyubomira (Relace) (02:32)
To how you as a company have decided to fulfill these obligations, because there's a lot of opportunity to decide how exactly you're going to fulfill these obligations. And then we are connecting these with your company operations and testing, right? So we're really looking at this is what you have to do, this is how you've decided that you fulfill these obligations, and this is what is really happening in practice. And then we kind of like do a full loop of these three things.
Lyubomira (Relace) (02:55)
and we're really passionate about what we are doing and the customers that we're working with at the moment.
Maulik Sailor (03:01)
Okay, that's wonderful, Lyuba. And you have an announcement to make, right, as I understand.
Lyubomira (Relace) (03:07)
Yes, no, absolutely. it's been my entire morning, so really exciting. we've just announced our pre seed funding, which is really exciting news for us and a testament to the problem space. we have some fantastic backers, institutional investors as well as angel investors. So you can find all about it online and on our website.
Maulik Sailor (03:28)
That's wonderful news. Congratulations, Lyubomira, and your
Lyubomira (Relace) (03:31)
Thank you.
Maulik Sailor (03:31)
co-founder Justin. I saw him a few days back. so
Lyubomira (Relace) (03:33)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (03:35)
really, great news for you both. so all right, anyways, I think the topic that we have been talking about is right up your alley.
Lyubomira (Relace) (03:42)
Yes.
Maulik Sailor (03:43)
and what we're going to talk about today might actually also apply to you in some sense. Okay.
Lyubomira (Relace) (03:48)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Maulik Sailor (03:50)
so let me let me frame that, right? So
Lyubomira (Relace) (03:51)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (03:52)
previously we spoke about
Maulik Sailor (03:54)
the continuously changing regulatory landscape, right? But generally
Lyubomira (Relace) (03:57)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (03:59)
at a very high level or general sense, regulations are always slow. They always do a catch up on
Lyubomira (Relace) (04:05)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (04:05)
where the industry is and where the problems are developing. Right.
Lyubomira (Relace) (04:09)
Yeah,
Maulik Sailor (04:09)
I just noticed while I'm talking here, there's a suddenly a bright sun on my face, right? So it kind of completely messing up with my with my light setup. But I don't think I can do much because it will keep on changing. Anyways.
Lyubomira (Relace) (04:20)
Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (04:20)
sorry, going back. So what I was saying is that there's always a regulatory catch-up that okay, so things are happening in the industry, problems are developing, and
Lyubomira (Relace) (04:31)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Maulik Sailor (04:33)
then the regulator will step in and will come up with new rule book. Right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (04:36)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (04:37)
Whereas if you just put any startup founder or a scale-up founder, or even large corporate, right? they
Maulik Sailor (04:46)
Have a product in the market, they wanna move fast, they wanna dominate the mar market as quickly as possible, and they just wanna keep innovating. They keep wanna
Lyubomira (Relace) (04:54)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (04:55)
innovating in the space that they are operating and dominate that before anyone else can do, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (04:57)
Mm, mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (05:02)
so you see, particularly for companies in a regulatory space, which I think pretty much every everyone are in regulatory space, except that some are less regulated, some are more regulated. Right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (05:12)
Yeah. I think
Lyubomira (Relace) (05:13)
that's the big realization, right? It's so interesting because as you're as you were kinda speaking, I thought back in the day it was a bit more you're either regulated or not regulated, right? But
Maulik Sailor (05:22)
Yeah.
Lyubomira (Relace) (05:23)
actually these days, pretty much everybody is somewhat regulated. And I think that's a real fact kinda to sink in and understand, right?
Maulik Sailor (05:31)
Yeah, exactly. Right. Even
Maulik Sailor (05:33)
if you operate like a simple landing page, now you suddenly fall into GDPR compliance landscape, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (05:39)
Correct. Exactly.
Maulik Sailor (05:41)
n let's say you put a C T V in your corner shop and it has to be part of GDPR and privacy and data retention and the rest of the things, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (05:47)
Correct, yeah. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (05:49)
so anyways, right? So, particularly let's take a a scaling startup
Lyubomira (Relace) (05:54)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (05:55)
that is operating in
Maulik Sailor (05:58)
possibly regulatory or semi regulatory space.
Lyubomira (Relace) (06:01)
Sure.
Maulik Sailor (06:01)
right. And the space is moving, agent e commerce and payments always is a good topic because it's a fast moving, there's a lot of changes happening within that.
Lyubomira (Relace) (06:10)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (06:10)
And most companies probably know some rules or regulations that apply to them.
Lyubomira (Relace) (06:17)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (06:18)
But then they know that a lot of these rules or regulations are outdated. they are backward looking.
Lyubomira (Relace) (06:23)
Mm-hmm,
Maulik Sailor (06:24)
Whereas their whole
Maulik Sailor (06:26)
product and technology is forward looking, they're looking ahead, what's next in the market, right? what next is gonna happen in in the industry. Right? So
Lyubomira (Relace) (06:29)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (06:36)
the biggest question that they face is okay, what, how do we keep innovating whilst the regulation has not caught up, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (06:43)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (06:44)
And what next? are they breaking like regulatory requirements? maybe they're breaching some of their duties, whatever, right? And there's always a dilemma.
Lyubomira (Relace) (06:53)
Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (06:54)
how fast they should move versus,
Lyubomira (Relace) (06:55)
Hmm. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (06:57)
how much of a catch up they need to do, right? So, we I want to deep dig deep into this this dilemma. but
Lyubomira (Relace) (07:06)
Is it?
Maulik Sailor (07:07)
before we do that, what, let's look back into a near history, right? Where
Lyubomira (Relace) (07:13)
Sure.
Maulik Sailor (07:14)
where suddenly, there was a fast moving space.
Lyubomira (Relace) (07:17)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (07:17)
regulations
Maulik Sailor (07:18)
were not there and then they tried to caught up and so forth, right? So, crypto, for example, could be a good example. twenty years ago
Lyubomira (Relace) (07:26)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (07:26)
nobody was talking crypto, but now it's like dominant space. And it kind of moved from an obscure, side thing which like crazy gigs were doing to becoming almost mainstream where everyone wanted to mint the coins and, have crypto wallets and whatever, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (07:42)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Maulik Sailor (07:46)
currently, what, unlike not associated with our fintech domain, but I'm seeing like this e bikes in London, It's like
Lyubomira (Relace) (07:53)
Yes.
Maulik Sailor (07:56)
it's a big regulatory enlightenment. it seems like you
Lyubomira (Relace) (07:58)
is.
Maulik Sailor (07:59)
know TFL or mayor of London or everyone is like just struggling to come up with a framework that okay, how should this e bike should operate?
Lyubomira (Relace) (08:07)
Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (08:09)
so I don't build onto that, okay, what, let's look into our near past.
Maulik Sailor (08:12)
And look through some of the things that has happened in the industry, particularly
Lyubomira (Relace) (08:17)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (08:19)
in the focus of fintech and AI or technology in general. what do you think the key lessons have been in this space?
Lyubomira (Relace) (08:27)
Look, I think it's quite an interesting question, right? And I think it has so many different facets. But I think the one thing that it it's I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say is that it if you're in a if you're in a regulated industry or regulated business, right? you usually regulations catch up with you, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (08:50)
and I think if you look at whether that's some of the big fintechs, right, over the past ten years, for example, whether it's crypto companies, right? usually they of course there is kind of the narrative growth and the desire to innovate and that's there. But if you are too aggressive, I guess, in actually maybe not kind of skipping certain things.
Lyubomira (Relace) (09:18)
Then regulation will will catch up with you. and I guess penalties will catch up with you. I think here what's interesting is the fact that first mover advantage, innovation, all of these things are really good and they're important, right, for a startup, and I am one, but they matter only if you're there three years later. And
Lyubomira (Relace) (09:42)
Five years later and 10 years later, right? so I think that's really important to keep in mind. And I and to be honest, I think also again to the point of that it's a very multifaceted problem. If you if you actually look at on the ground how things are happening, right? sometimes I feel like that the narrative that you know regulation slows you down, there is an element to it, but it's not all that, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (10:10)
because there is a fixed cost to regulation. That's absolutely true, right? So there is a fixed cost to regulation. However, newer type of types of regulation, like let's say consumer duty, it's more principle-based, right? And if you have actually more principle-based regulation, it's more adapted to the scale of the business, right? and it's a and then the business of any size can actually proportionally
Lyubomira (Relace) (10:37)
and comply with the regulation while also innovating on their product and on their business model. so I think my learning is that it's yes, but it's really important to think that if you become big enough, regulation will catch up with you, right? And the most important thing that you can do to mitigate this while you're innovating is actually to show you work, right? It's show you work.
Lyubomira (Relace) (11:03)
And what I mean by that is really show your decision making, right? Show what you have considered and what you have decided to do on the back of it, right? and if you have that, that's that already helps really again your thought process, your operations, but it helps the regulator as well. the other important element there as well is accountability, right? Again, if you show your work.
Lyubomira (Relace) (11:32)
And you have accountability, and accountability is good practice in engineering as well, right? We've all worked at places where you've had a bunch of orphan services without anybody owning them, right? And that's a ticking time bomb. It's the same with regulation, right? It's actually no different. So you need to have an accountable person show your work. and then with that, I think more confidently you can actually innovate in your product or in your business and operating model.
Lyubomira (Relace) (11:59)
and even if kind of the regulation and regulatory landscape hasn't caught up with you, right? But what it helps you is that in five years, when you are big enough and successful, a penalty doesn't come down your way.
Maulik Sailor (12:13)
So, I think you already answered
Lyubomira (Relace) (12:16)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (12:17)
my question, but I think I w I want to ask the question again,
Lyubomira (Relace) (12:21)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (12:21)
just to see whether there's anything more to add, right? So
Lyubomira (Relace) (12:24)
Okay.
Maulik Sailor (12:24)
let's say if I'm a founder of a of a fast moving scale up,
Lyubomira (Relace) (12:29)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (12:29)
I've raised my seed series A round, and I'm preparing for my either series A or B, like a growth round,
Lyubomira (Relace) (12:35)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (12:37)
industry is moving fast.
Maulik Sailor (12:38)
Which is what
Lyubomira (Relace) (12:38)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (12:39)
we are seeing a lot in the AI space. a lot of companies are moving from pre seed to seed and A and B very quickly within two years, right? So it's a fast moving industry.
Lyubomira (Relace) (12:45)
Echo. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (12:48)
you possibly are, first all an early mover in the space you are operating, regulations catching up. What are the key things I should balance to make sure that, what? Now I hope I'm successful, but then I don't get penalized or worse, I don't get
Maulik Sailor (13:07)
put behind the bars.
Lyubomira (Relace) (13:09)
Yeah, no,
Lyubomira (Relace) (13:10)
look, I d I think again I to answer this question, I think you're really stepping back to the basic the basics, right? And the first principles. I think it's really important to have accountability, right? and accountable people within your company, right? people that are looking after the topic, that are paying attention, right? we all make decisions all of the time. We all have trade-offs that we have to consider.
Lyubomira (Relace) (13:37)
Right. so it's about showing your work, it's about showing recording. Like it's really important about to record, to keep evidence, right? To show in practice, right, on paper, what is your thought process, what you have considered and what you have done about it, right? And what are the trade-offs that you have considered and why, right? Your decision and thought process. and at the end of the day, look, I think and this is true.
Lyubomira (Relace) (14:06)
on all levels, right? we are still accountable for all of our work, right? And that is kind of from the regulatory perspective, you're accountable, right? That is for me as an individual contributor, right, in a company. Whatever I produce, I'm accountable for, right? Whether that's a document and a product proposal, right? We kind of hear these stories, wait AI wrote it or you know, AI coded it, etc.
Lyubomira (Relace) (14:33)
You're still responsible for that. And that's really important to remember. And that has real implications in a regulatory environment. So my advice will be don't be afraid to innovate, right? There's a little bit, I think, of kind of false narrative, in my opinion. Don't be don't be afraid to innovate, right? And develop business process new kind of operating models, new processes, new product. but keep in mind this have accountability, right? Instill that accountability in your company, educate, right? Educate the people in the company and
Lyubomira (Relace) (15:03)
the I have a big challenge on this topic. and then really show you work, right? and I think with that you're in a much better place.
Maulik Sailor (15:14)
Okay, cool. So, in a nutshell, understand
Lyubomira (Relace) (15:18)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (15:19)
that you would be eventually accountable or at least have somebody accountable in your company
Lyubomira (Relace) (15:23)
Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (15:24)
and document as much as you can, right? but in a startup world you got less people, you're always running out of time and money, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (15:31)
Right. Of course.
Maulik Sailor (15:33)
particularly I would say not only true for startup, but also for mid to large enterprises, particularly
Lyubomira (Relace) (15:38)
Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (15:38)
when are
Maulik Sailor (15:39)
building a new product and the market is developing, you still
Lyubomira (Relace) (15:41)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (15:43)
have less time and money to work on your product and the and the
Lyubomira (Relace) (15:46)
Yeah, yeah.
Maulik Sailor (15:47)
new offering, right? so what do you think? What are the most common regulatory like boundaries or checkpoints
Lyubomira (Relace) (15:59)
Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (15:59)
or checklists that often founders and the business leaders they they miss whilst they are moving.
Lyubomira (Relace) (16:01)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Lyubomira (Relace) (16:06)
I think, I it's such a good question, right? And I think there are a couple of aspects there. So the first one is regulatory scope creep, right? and I think that's where really keeping kind of having someone accountable is really important and to keep an eye on this, right? And what I mean by this is
Lyubomira (Relace) (16:24)
Whether you're changing your product and evolving product, right? In the excitement, in the in the speed to go to market, it's so easy to cross a threshold, right? It's so easy. It's so easy a product that, you know, a suggestion to become advice, right? In the financial services sector. It's so easy when you're developing, for example, a technology, right, that you know superpowers your product, but actually crosses a red line somewhere.
Lyubomira (Relace) (16:51)
Right in a in a jurisdiction. so I think it's really like a regulatory scope creep, and that is on what you're offering and where you're offering it, right? So the product, how you're offering it, and where you're offering it, right? These three things. So that's how I would think, and I think it's really important for the organization to figure out how they can monitor for that. So, what is the product? What does it do, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (17:16)
how is it built? What technology it's using, because this has big implications, right? If I'm using if I'm providing my product using AI, or it's fully manual, or it's some sort of deterministic, non-deterministic kind of approach, it's really important. And where I'm offering it because jurisdictions have different rules for this for the previous two points, right? regulatory scope creep. The second one is data, usage, right? And here is where I think.
Lyubomira (Relace) (17:44)
I'm quite passionate about that and I don't I think it's structurally poor practice, if I can say so, where a lot of technical folks, right, engineers, don't get really trained, right? Or don't have the same appreciation that if you are working in a regulated space, right, the way we deal with data and certain data should be different, right? The way kind of you
Lyubomira (Relace) (18:09)
treat the data, the processes you build is should be different, right? and I think there is a lot more we can do to educate and instill best practices there, right? what I mean by this is for example PAI data right you want to you want to kind of look at logs for example and kind of fix bugs right but if there is PAI data in the logs you can't just do it right you have to take care of this data. Why? Because
Lyubomira (Relace) (18:35)
It will leak somewhere, right? And that's almost personal information. we recently had an event last month, and was so interesting because we pitched it to both compliance and engineering folks. And we were like, if you're in regulated business, you should be talking. You should be talking about how you view data, right? How you use it, etc. And it's so interesting because some of the responses that I got from some engineering folks, it's like, hmm, this is compliance. That's it's not for me, right? Like I have nothing to do with that. I'm like,
Lyubomira (Relace) (19:04)
you're working in a financial institution. It has everything to do with you because the decisions that you make on the ground impact the business, right? So I think there is a lot of work to be done in that space. because ultimately it's mine and your data, right? and those things bite you at the back at the end.
Maulik Sailor (19:21)
So I w I wanna pick like, a situation, right? So let's say
Lyubomira (Relace) (19:26)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (19:27)
again, put a lens of a fast growing company,
Lyubomira (Relace) (19:30)
Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (19:31)
either startup or fast growing offering from an existing organization, right? Let's say you build a product, you build a feature
Lyubomira (Relace) (19:39)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (19:40)
which becomes your biggest selling point, right? And I can actually quote you a company on that, right? So transfer
Lyubomira (Relace) (19:44)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (19:45)
wise, for example.
Lyubomira (Relace) (19:46)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (19:46)
or wise as it's called now. But back in the days was called transfer wise.
Maulik Sailor (19:51)
And when they first started, the whole premise was simple. That I hey, what, I got, let's say it was like I think two France travelling from UK to Lithuania or somewhere, and that
Lyubomira (Relace) (20:01)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (20:02)
they okay, what, why do we need a middleman for us to swap the currency, right? I got some, I can't remember the exact current, but let's say Euro. you
Lyubomira (Relace) (20:09)
Yeah,
Maulik Sailor (20:09)
want euro, I got some euro, you want it.
Maulik Sailor (20:11)
You got some G V P I wanted, right? Can we just swap? Right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (20:14)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (20:15)
and they built like this mechanism for them to swap the currencies, right? Which is what kind of got them the hey, what, you can swap currencies or get affects at no cost, no fees, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (20:23)
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (20:27)
But technically, it's like probably in a lot of countries was probably illegal. Right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (20:33)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (20:35)
and again I can tell you from Indian point of view, in India similar system is called Hawala system, which is
Maulik Sailor (20:40)
technically and illegal operations, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (20:40)
Okay. Interesting, yeah.
Maulik Sailor (20:43)
right. but what, that became their biggest growth story and then they built the whole company. of course they are now regulated and compliant in l in pretty much a lot of
Lyubomira (Relace) (20:47)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (20:53)
countries and regulatory environment, right? including
Lyubomira (Relace) (20:55)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (20:56)
India now actually they do good business in India as well. but this is a situation where, okay, what, you got your one of your biggest product feature, which like pretty much everyone loves.
Maulik Sailor (21:07)
in your target
Lyubomira (Relace) (21:08)
Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (21:09)
market segment, but that itself could be a big regulatory risk, for you, right? So,
Lyubomira (Relace) (21:14)
Right. Right.
Maulik Sailor (21:16)
again, this is like always a dilemma. what do you want to do as a as a founder, as an as an operator in that space? wha how do you want to deal with this?
Lyubomira (Relace) (21:24)
Yeah, it it's interesting, right? Because so look, I think there is a scale question, right, there. and again, the companies that you quoted, they've been successful enough, right? That ten years later they're still around, they're big, right? But it's interesting because they're paying some debts, right? And that has been in the news, right? So I think there is a scale there. Again, when you are working on a new business model and the kind of when you're testing this and when delivering back I they've changed the way I travel, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (21:54)
fantastic and I love it right and you really see the difference the way you travel and think about money and let's say your parents right who still go to the exchange bureau and change money beforehand before that the before the trip. so but I think for them right all of the kind of this generation of companies I don't want to speak to the kind of legality of what they were doing right because I don't I don't know this
Lyubomira (Relace) (22:20)
But I think again for me there it's a problem of right now of scaling and have they kind of kept up their controls and their kind of maturity in operations with their scale, right? And I think for me, to be honest, the lesson there is that if you don't do that.
Lyubomira (Relace) (22:43)
Sooner or later it will start slowing you down at some point, right? So, and I think that's the case right now with a few of them, right?
Maulik Sailor (22:52)
Yeah.
Lyubomira (Relace) (22:52)
they're paying for that.
Maulik Sailor (22:54)
Yeah. So let me again build building on this premise, right? So
Lyubomira (Relace) (22:58)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (22:59)
there are there are two related questions, right? One is great, what I know that what I'm doing that is a that is a regulatory debt to be paid at some point, right? And I
Lyubomira (Relace) (23:10)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (23:12)
need to I need to, start taking the compliances more seriously, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (23:17)
Mm, yeah.
Maulik Sailor (23:18)
But I don't wanna slow down.
Lyubomira (Relace) (23:20)
Sure, right.
Maulik Sailor (23:20)
Right. I wanna I wanna continue. I wanna I wanna dominate the marketplace before and then
Maulik Sailor (23:25)
once I dominate the marketplace, then I might be better able to dictate what should happen in this particular space. Right? Rather
Lyubomira (Relace) (23:31)
Interesting. Yeah, Sure. Yeah, yeah.
Maulik Sailor (23:33)
than, okay, slow down and okay, let regulator catch up and then probably I'm just like any as like my competitor, right? and may not have a lot of say in it, right, in designing the regulation, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (23:36)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Maulik Sailor (23:44)
So one question is like
Maulik Sailor (23:47)
How do you really keep doing that without appearing that, what, you are just gonna be very reckless in your approach from the regulatory eyes?
Lyubomira (Relace) (23:53)
Right.
Maulik Sailor (23:56)
and a second related question that okay, maybe you are a little bit reckless. But at what point you so you think, that kind of tame it down a bit that hey, what? Yes, we have been reckless. We realize that it's gonna be a big regulatory mind fill. Hence we are now taking it more seriously and wanna work with the regulator and
Maulik Sailor (24:16)
what? Come along with us, we'll define this new space.
Lyubomira (Relace) (24:20)
It's so interesting, right? I really think so look, I so first of all, just a big disclaimer, I like I can't I can't speak on the on the behalf of any regulator, etc. so I really don't want to give advice as such, not a regulatory advice, any of this. I find that if you actually look at successful kind of financial services companies whether old or kind of fintechs kind of new are coming up.
Lyubomira (Relace) (24:44)
You do see all different approaches. You do see the guys which are like, I will run and I'll think about when I big get bigger, right? you do see those that engage earlier. You do see those that actually are really growing through a really active dialogue with a regulator, right? I think, you know, obviously on one hand you have Revolute, right? which took one approach, also took another approach, Stanley took a very different approach.
Lyubomira (Relace) (25:09)
Zilch is taking very different approach. I think what is quite interesting is to just have a look at the different approaches. And this is taste, right? This is the founding theme of this company and how they decide to carry their activities.
Lyubomira (Relace) (25:23)
Right? And I really don't think one size fits all. If you look at it, Zochi is a really successful company as well, right? And their approach is very different. They're in such an active, at least from my understanding, in such an active conversation with kind of their regulators, right? As they're innovating, as they're growing, right? And they came actually came up to one of the sandboxes, which is fantastic, right? so every all of these companies are successful in their own right, and they all took slightly different approaches, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (25:52)
and and kind of forging their destinies. So again I think the important things for all of these teams, whatever approach you decide to take, that's up to you, right? My advice would be to really don't
Lyubomira (Relace) (26:09)
not to forget the accountability and that at the end of the day you are accountable for all for all the aspects of what you're delivering and your work and the impact that you're having, whether that's completely internal or external, right? And that you are mitigating your risks by showing your work, right? And by documenting the process and the thought process. And I think you know, we for example help with that, right? Technology can help you with that. It's not as burdensome as it used to be in the past.
Lyubomira (Relace) (26:38)
So one of the kind of arguments there is why wouldn't you do it? Right? Why wouldn't you do it when there are better ways to do it now as before? Maybe that was an excuse five, ten years ago. But it isn't really an excuse now, right? and I think that's also important to kind of understand how the expectations are changing, right? So yeah.
Maulik Sailor (27:03)
I have a thought.
Lyubomira (Relace) (27:05)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (27:06)
sometimes so you pick an industry.
Lyubomira (Relace) (27:13)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (27:14)
industry is heavily regulated. you got hundreds of rules for you to to comply
Lyubomira (Relace) (27:18)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (27:19)
with and it just becomes a slow moving industry where people are almost very similar and
Lyubomira (Relace) (27:25)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (27:26)
you are like, your customers are picking a particular vendor based on
Maulik Sailor (27:31)
price or availability or service level that they provide, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (27:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (27:38)
But at the end of the day the product or service they provide is almost very similar, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (27:42)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (27:44)
airline is a classic example of that. regardless of which airlines you b you fly, the safety same. start and end is almost the same, but is the right yeah.
Lyubomira (Relace) (27:52)
The Orion Air came about and then the seats became much smaller. But the price dropped, so yeah.
Maulik Sailor (28:00)
Yeah. So w what I was gonna ask is like sometimes the innovation in this space, in this kind of sleepy industry,
Lyubomira (Relace) (28:10)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (28:11)
the innovation comes by breaking these regulations.
Lyubomira (Relace) (28:15)
Mm-hmm. Do you have an example?
Maulik Sailor (28:16)
Right.
Maulik Sailor (28:18)
you can take airline we said I think this like affects like crypto for example, the whole pre previous of crypto or Bitcoin was decentralization, right? Which is completely opposite of what's like, central banks have been doing. Right? And then
Lyubomira (Relace) (28:30)
Right, all right. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (28:36)
so you so
Maulik Sailor (28:38)
People get so fed up of your existing premise, which is overly regulated, and then suddenly
Lyubomira (Relace) (28:43)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (28:43)
a new offering comes, which is completely anti regulation
Lyubomira (Relace) (28:46)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (28:49)
or an opposite way of thinking.
Lyubomira (Relace) (28:52)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (28:53)
Which is like almost falls into that reckless, definition that, hey, this is what the industry about. But what? What
Lyubomira (Relace) (28:56)
Mm-hmm. I see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (29:00)
you're doing is completely, like, if you were part of this industry, what? You definitely are gonna get screwed, right?
Maulik Sailor (29:06)
but that's not what we see. we see that some of the best of fast moving innovations actually come out when people start thinking against the regulations. Right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (29:14)
Mm. Mm. Mm. Okay. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (29:21)
So and I I'm just thinking about it myself that okay, what? If as a founder you are looking to do something, you study your market.
Lyubomira (Relace) (29:32)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (29:32)
You
Maulik Sailor (29:32)
study who are your competitors or the or the current offering in the market and you pick
Lyubomira (Relace) (29:36)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (29:36)
okay something, okay, I wanna do it this way, this thing.
Lyubomira (Relace) (29:38)
Completely contrary. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (29:40)
and it may turn out that okay, what you wanna do is actually n the the reason why existing
Lyubomira (Relace) (29:44)
Don't know if this is my internet.
Maulik Sailor (29:46)
players are not doing it is because of the regulation.
Maulik Sailor (29:52)
Ooh, I think we have a connection issue.
Lyubomira (Relace) (29:56)
Yes, I think so. I think it's back.
Maulik Sailor (29:59)
Yeah, okay, cool. Sorry, we had a small glitch. but the point I was trying to make is that as a founder or or even as a as a corporate innovation person, you
Lyubomira (Relace) (30:10)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (30:10)
figure out a new opportunity or something new you wanna do, a product feature
Lyubomira (Relace) (30:15)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (30:15)
or a new product. And the reason why your competitors are not doing it or existing players in the
Lyubomira (Relace) (30:20)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (30:20)
market are not doing it is because regulation do not allow them to do it. And then
Lyubomira (Relace) (30:24)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (30:25)
you think that okay, what?
Maulik Sailor (30:26)
me being not part of the existing industry and all, maybe I want to do it.
Lyubomira (Relace) (30:29)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (30:30)
Right? And that's when it starts becoming more sense. That's when the existing players start moving or also start adopting
Lyubomira (Relace) (30:35)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (30:37)
that. If it's become big, then they also start adopting that. And that's when the regulations tend to catch up or change. That okay fine, we did not allow you to do that in the past, but now we will allow you to do it. Right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (30:47)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (30:48)
So you see how kind of being or breaking regulation or being anti regulation
Maulik Sailor (30:54)
can also help supercharge the innovations, right? And of course there's a risk here, right? There's of course there's a there's an unknown risk that you are carrying. But still, it's worthwhile. If you can
Lyubomira (Relace) (31:06)
Okay.
Maulik Sailor (31:06)
think that there is an industry can change, then it's a worthwhile risk for you
Lyubomira (Relace) (31:09)
Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (31:09)
to take.
Lyubomira (Relace) (31:10)
Of course. it's interesting, right? Because we all as individuals, I think, we have two personas or two lives, right? So there is the corporate person, right? And then there is the individual. So if I can run with your example about airlines, right, and Ryanair. I mean, if I'm a Ryanair kind of boss, right, or a senior exec, and you know, one of you's regulations on compensation, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (31:37)
hate that. Please scrap it, right? Auntie.
Maulik Sailor (31:41)
Yeah.
Lyubomira (Relace) (31:41)
but if I am Lubumirod individual traveling on a disrupted flight, right? You know what? I quite like it, right? Because when something bad happens, I get protected. So I think with these things, you we all have these dual personalities and dual lives and dual kind of incentives, right? I think one of the things to kind of think about is
Lyubomira (Relace) (32:04)
Think regulation in general is kind of you know there is opinion there and politics involved, and it kind of constantly changes, right? Sometimes certain things are tighter depending on what has happened, maybe events that have happened, then they get loser, then they get tighter, then they get loser. So I think that's absolutely fair to say, right? and so me, for example, as a regulatory technology provider.
Lyubomira (Relace) (32:33)
Not advocating for more regulation, right? Necessarily. I think for me it's a fact that there is a lot of change happening, right? And when there is change, whether that's more or less, it's change, right? Which you need to deal with, right? and again, I think so that's quite important to say. And if you are again, if you want to explore a new business model, and by the way.
Lyubomira (Relace) (32:59)
A few of our customers are really thinking on a completely new business model. I mean, things that have not been offered in a structure, in the structure in which they're thinking, right? And it comes from deep inside knowledge, working in a space and thinking there is a much better way to do this, right? And so as they're thinking about how they bootstrap their business, right, and how they go about it, they are again working with companies like us.
Lyubomira (Relace) (33:27)
To help them figure out what they need to do, right? And I think genuinely, you know what? Explore it. Of course, explore it. If you have a hunch, if you want to think about a new model of a new way to or a completely new product, go for it. Again, I think if you're in somewhat regulated environment, regardless if it's deregulating or regulating more, the best practices that we covered apply, right? And you you're better off engaging somewhat.
Lyubomira (Relace) (33:55)
Right, or engaging with them to kind of drive your business forward. I think another thing that I maybe want to bring to this is around fundraising, right? Specifically. And I think more and more of what we are hearing as well is that unless you can actually prove that you know, what your regulatory posture is and what you're doing about it, you will struggle to fundraise.
Lyubomira (Relace) (34:19)
Right, more and more, right? So there is a real, impact there. And we hear that across very different early stage startups startups, big scale hedge funds, right? Like you hear it across the board. So I think that's important to appreciate as well.
Maulik Sailor (34:34)
Understood, right? now we've been talking for a good part of an hour, right? so soon we'll have to start wrapping our discussion. but before we do that, right, at a high level, at a very high level, right? You
Lyubomira (Relace) (34:47)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (34:48)
again you hear we are today's topic is all about innovation versus regulation, right? And if you hear from politicians as well, some big economists as well.
Lyubomira (Relace) (34:59)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (35:00)
in the US right now Trump, President Trump saying, Okay, what, I don't want to regulate AI, we want to win this race before anyone else, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (35:08)
Sure, yeah.
Maulik Sailor (35:09)
and it kind of clearly signals you that by putting some sort of regulation, you're kind of killing the innovation, you're slowing it down. Which is what he's trying to trying to indicate. And similarly, when you when you hear politicians here in the UK that hey, we wanna grow the UK economy,
Maulik Sailor (35:27)
by deregulating some of the industries, right? by cutting the rat tapes and so forth. Right.
Lyubomira (Relace) (35:33)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (35:34)
same thing, now I can talk about India because I I'm from India and I I know the country to a degree. And again, you
Lyubomira (Relace) (35:38)
Of course. Yeah. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (35:41)
know, India was also like kind of a similar that hey, what, we can we can grow the economy by cutting the red tapes and, by making things easier for people to do business, right? And so on.
Lyubomira (Relace) (35:50)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (35:52)
And that's what you hear. So
Maulik Sailor (35:54)
a at a macro level.
Lyubomira (Relace) (35:56)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (35:58)
Generally, people say, okay, what, regulation and innovation, they are the opposite end of the str spectrum.
Lyubomira (Relace) (36:04)
Sure, yeah.
Maulik Sailor (36:05)
Whereas what we are talking about is how can you be really innovative still
Lyubomira (Relace) (36:08)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (36:09)
within the regulatory wrapper around you? Right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (36:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (36:14)
So what's your take there?
Lyubomira (Relace) (36:15)
Yeah, I think it's interesting, right? So look, I think specifically for the UK, let's take the UK. I think definitely what I'm seeing again from our participation in the sandbox, I mean, if you look at how many innovation programs the FCA is running, right? I feel that there is a real appreciation that and they're trying to strike a balance between helping innovation, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (36:39)
But ensuring bad outcomes don't happen, right? so there is at least an active conversation and an attempt there, right? So that's one thing. And I think for me, I like that, right? I think this is a good approach. so that's one aspect. w when you said, you know, deregulate kinda AI, we wanna win the race, and I just that thought, I don't know if you if you listen to much Rita Ora or early Rita Ora work.
Lyubomira (Relace) (37:06)
One of her songs, there is there is this phrase which I think is I like it. I think it's quite powerful. Who told you you're winning just because you're spinning? Right?
Maulik Sailor (37:14)
Yeah. Okay.
Lyubomira (Relace) (37:15)
so I kinda keep that in mind sometimes, because it helps with a bit of perspective. I think there are more factors playing into that kind of policy there, right? And into that drive. so yeah.
Lyubomira (Relace) (37:30)
I think I like the UK's approach at the moment because it feels like it's engaged, it's on the ground, it's trying to strike a balance, right? and kind of find a good way to do it. and I think that's what's important.
Maulik Sailor (37:45)
Okay, cool. Now I wanna start wrapping up our discussion. Right. So
Lyubomira (Relace) (37:49)
Mm-hmm.
Maulik Sailor (37:49)
I wanna ask you a few quick fire questions.
Lyubomira (Relace) (37:52)
Sure, okay.
Maulik Sailor (37:53)
Okay. some of this you may have already answered in this or the prior sessions, but just as a wrap up, I wanna have a like a quick, top tips for potential, la audience,
Lyubomira (Relace) (37:58)
Okay, let's do Okay, okay, okay.
Maulik Sailor (38:05)
right? So okay, number one, once it sort of proactively engaged with regulators.
Lyubomira (Relace) (38:12)
As soon as you've found like your product market fit, right? As soon as you've kind of figured like mm, this is what I want to do.
Maulik Sailor (38:18)
Okay, cool. what key foundations they need to have before so once you find your product market fit, you will probably go into that growth trajectory, but what
Lyubomira (Relace) (38:25)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (38:27)
key foundations you need to have by then to make sure that
Lyubomira (Relace) (38:30)
Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (38:30)
you are you're on the right track?
Lyubomira (Relace) (38:32)
Yeah, I think the first one is show your work, right? show what you're considering, what you're doing about it and how you're operationalizing it. adopt technology for that and accountability.
Maulik Sailor (38:44)
Okay. And if you were to engage with regulator at that point, right,
Lyubomira (Relace) (38:48)
Mm.
Maulik Sailor (38:50)
what story do you want to tell to them?
Lyubomira (Relace) (38:53)
not a regulatory advisor, right? I think again I would suggest that you really point them out to show your work, right? And then you really
Maulik Sailor (39:01)
Yeah.
Lyubomira (Relace) (39:01)
want to explain what's the benefit of what you're doing, what are the outcomes for the customers, right? And why you think this business model makes sense. And well and then you wanna have a conversation with them, what does it mean for my regulatory posture?
Maulik Sailor (39:13)
Yeah. What signal you want to give out to your investors so that they can trust you and your company that you are not being reckless, you're not engaging in some sort of criminal activity and you will build a product that is gonna win the race and still
Lyubomira (Relace) (39:28)
I I
Maulik Sailor (39:29)
compliant.
Lyubomira (Relace) (39:30)
yeah, absolutely. I again I think managing your regulatory kind of requirements in a spreadsheet is not acceptable these days, right? For if you if you're fundraising. Not having clear answers on where you stand right now and what the impact will be with your kind of growth trajectory, not acceptable right now. So you wanna have answers, right? You wanna you wanna pay attention, you wanna have answers and you wanna be engaged and then
Lyubomira (Relace) (39:57)
On the back of that have an informed position.
Maulik Sailor (40:00)
Okay. How should found this future proof like the product that they're working today or dominating today with a changing landscape regulatory landscape, tomorrow, next week, next month?
Lyubomira (Relace) (40:13)
Yeah,
Lyubomira (Relace) (40:13)
I think I think it's evolving. I think it's keeping it nimble, right? I think again, the two things to pay attention to is how you use data, right? How you use data, what is the tech that you're using to provide your product, because that can pull you in different regulatory kind of perimeters in different jurisdictions. and it can really blindside you. and the last thing is like just again, regulatory creep.
Lyubomira (Relace) (40:41)
Right. so just watch that out and really try to kind of proportionally engage, right? Kind of with you with your regulators, whatever that is, whoever they are. and it kinda embed technology. Whether you buy it, whether you bill it, embed technology.
Maulik Sailor (40:59)
Okay, cool. And my closing question before we wrap up, right? Let's imagine you've been working on something great, you've been moving fast. but what? The regulators are just totally ignoring your space. Right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (41:14)
Okay. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (41:16)
And it's been four, five years, they have not really done anything about it,
Maulik Sailor (41:20)
you think that okay, what, they might not even gonna do anything for next five, ten years, right?
Lyubomira (Relace) (41:24)
Yeah. Yeah.
Maulik Sailor (41:26)
What should they do?
Lyubomira (Relace) (41:27)
Yeah, I think it's quite interesting, right? So plenty already applies, right? I t I think even if you think, well, there is nothing written specifically for me, mm still the activities, right? The underlying there's plenty that applies, I would say engage with that. And then just again, the best practices that we discussed apply. Wrong with it. Great. You found something great?
Maulik Sailor (41:50)
Yeah. Cool. Wonderful. thank you. Thank you, Libomira, for this wonderful discussion. And I know it was this was great, because we are talking about things that can shape like current and future industries, right? That can shape the current and future products that are being built, right? And of course we are not talking about one particular trend or one particular innovation particular
Lyubomira (Relace) (42:13)
Exactly.
Maulik Sailor (42:15)
technology, right? But I think we are talking general principles.
Maulik Sailor (42:19)
that may apply to a lot of founders,
Lyubomira (Relace) (42:21)
Exactly.
Maulik Sailor (42:22)
a lot of corporate innovators, a lot of existing scale ups in the market, right? so I believe that this advice well it's not a legal advice or all right, this opinion, let's put it this way, this opinion
Lyubomira (Relace) (42:31)
Not advice, not regulatory legal advice. It's opinion.
Maulik Sailor (42:38)
maybe useful, right? but before I end this session, again, congratulations on your raise,
Lyubomira (Relace) (42:43)
Thanks much.
Maulik Sailor (42:44)
And hopefully I will see you at our next physical meetup.
Lyubomira (Relace) (42:48)
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.